Announcement National Dex UU Suspect 12: Rock You Like a Hurricane


Still doesnt get Hurricane tho.
Thundurus-Therian was banned a long time ago, largely thanks to its double dance set being such a menace behind screens, as well as its typing and ability affording it many chances to set up. This, in tandem with its incredible base 145 Special Attack stat, excellent neutral coverage with its Thunderbolt and a Hidden Power of its choice, more than earned it its spot in UUBL.

However, the meta couldn’t be more different now if it tried. Mega Altaria is now arguably the best Pokemon in the tier, as opposed to in the Thundurus-Therian meta where it was mediocre at best, and bulky ground types such as Hippowdon, Rhyperior, Swampert, Nidoqueen, and many more have risen to dominance. Bulky grasses such as Amoonguss, Tangrowth and Zarude are also rather prevalent and are good at harassing it, with Zarude notably outspeeding it and hitting it for neutral with Darkest Lariat. Nihilego is also bulky enough to eat any one hit other than +2 Gigavolt Havoc and KO with its Rock STAB, outspeeding unboosted Thundurus-Therian to boot. Worse still, it is far from rare that multiple of these checks are on the same team. This means Double Dance struggles to hit everything it needs to with its two available moveslots, making Double Dance, the set it was primarily banned for, far less difficult to deal with. And, as if the meta changes weren’t enough of a problem for it, Light Clay has since been banned, making screens virtually nonexistent. This is especially notable as screens were arguably Thundurus-Therian’s best playstyle.

While base 101 speed is indeed fairly above average for a wallbreaker, it’s more than within the realms of what teams are already prepared for. Notably, it is outsped by Nihilego, Terrakion, Zarude, Azelf, Mienshao, and Keldeo, all of which can threaten it with either their STABs or a common coverage move. While the NP 3 attacks set is generally much more lacking in defensive counterplay, we’re not really strangers to boosting wallbreakers with little defensive counterplay, like Terrakion. Z-Move sets also face issues with Stealth Rocks, especially problematic given how it is likely to be forced out a lot, and the meta has struggled to reliably clear hazards effectively for a while now, making pressuring it easier. Ditching the Z Crystal for Heavy-Duty Boots also means Thundurus-Therian loses a significant amount of its breaking power, though that isn’t to say it can’t run a pivoting set with Knock Off and U-turn/Volt Switch instead to be an effective and relatively powerful Electric-type check, and even NP is still probably fairly strong.

However, there are some aspects of Thundurus-Therian that raise some concern. Namely, its typing plus Volt Absorb turns common Electric-types Zeraora and Mega Manectric not running the already rare Hidden Power Ice into setup fodder, especially Z Move Thundurus-Therian sets, as Zeraora cannot cripple it with Knock Off. This is concerning as often Zeraora or Mega Manectric are a team’s main form of speed control. These traits also gives it additional setup opportunities other boosting wallbreakers here lack, namely letting it set up on Scizor, Salamence, Celesteela and Skarmory, the first three being highly relevant meta threats seen on a large number of teams. Biggest of all, however, is the fact that +2 Gigavolt Havoc has the potential to blow past even bulky checks that resist it, OHKOing Zarude after rocks (if you can remove its boots) and doing upwards of 80% to Amoonguss, meaning teams may end up having to play carefully around its Z move. That said, with how prevalent and effective bulky Ground types are, this may be more risky for Thundurus-Therian than it sounds. Finally, between its possible third slot coverage moves (Psychic, Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast), there aren’t really any reliable defensive answers to every possible option, meaning you have to wait until it reveals said coverage move.

Suspect Test Information
  • Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.
  • GXEminimum games
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  • The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Thundurus-T, will be allowed on the National Dex UU ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
  • This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until July 31th at 11:59 PM GMT-4.
Going to preface this by saying that I'm not a tournament player and my opinion is based on my experience playing on ladder, but I think Thundurus-Therian should be banned on the basis of its nasty plot + electrium z set because of its surprising ease in setting up and the lack of defensive counterplay.

Thundurus-Therian has enough 2 useful immunities that allow it to find free switch ins on electric and ground types such as Zeraora and Swampert allowing it to easily get to +2. From this point there is practically no defensive counterplay and you have to safely find a way to pivot in an offensive check.

Bulky ground types fall to grass knot which IMO is the most useful coverage move for Thundurus-Therian in the current metagame
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 250-296 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 441-519 (101.6 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 292-348 (72.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even with max spdef investment the majority of bulky ground types cant stand up to unboosted grass knot. On top of this mons like hippowdon and swampert can really only toxic Thundurus back which can lead to them becoming setup fodder unless they opt for less generally useful moves such as stone edge or ice beam. Even ground that aren't weak to grass knot don’t successfully wall Thundurus with coverage options like psychic for nidoking and nidoqueen and nasty plot to boost past mega-steelix
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 270-318 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 244-288 (75.7 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48 SpD Steelix-Mega: 281-331 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With an important note that Nidoking and Nidoqueen can only guarantee a OHKO with ice beam which is a much less common coverage move and would mean they are forced to drop one of fireblast/flamethrower, earthpower, sludge wave, or stealth rocks which either means they have a worse matchup against another mon or rocks have to be shifted somewhere else removing their ability to role compress

Amoonguss being the most popular grass type is also easy for thundurus to get past with psychic coverage, while tangrowth even with max spdef and AV can be 2HKOed by +2 thundy after rocks (which is a not great tang set but it shows that these grass types aren't able to fully stop Thundurus defensively, while offensively they can only hope for a high sludge bomb roll which does ~30%)
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Psychic vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Amoonguss: 230-272 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 366-431 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This isnt to say that there is absolutely no counterplay to thundurus therian. Terrakion and Nihiligo are both able to outspeed and threaten OHKOs, although they are both limited to switching into thundurus at most 2-3 times in a game. Similarly, Zarude is able to beat Thundurus if it has either taken 30-40% damage already or zarude is able to get a safe switch. This consequently forces the Terrakion/Nihilego/Zarude player to be unable to consistently check Thundurus over the course of the game, especially if these mons are also being used to check other threats such as Moltres or Primarina
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 127-150 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 174-205 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zarude: 165-195 (47 - 55.5%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zarude: 321-378 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 177-208 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed

Lastly there's some other offensive checks that to an extent can deal with Thundurus which i’ll go into a bit less detail on
Probably one of the better offensive checks, outspeeding and 2HKOing while avoiding a OHKO, but can only switch in on grass knot
252 SpA Azelf Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 171-202 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 214-253 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 71-84 (24.3 - 28.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 4HKO
Another good offensive check but similarly to Azelf cant switch in very easily, and using stone edge as the fourth move means it probably won't have room for poison jab and will get walled by altaria
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 369-437 (123.4 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 160-190 (59 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 214-254 (78.9 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 98-116 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Outspeeds and threatens a 2HKO but is OHKOed in return
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 156-184 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 348-410 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Only B ranked (IMO should move down to B-), not terrible but a rare pick as a ground type that loses to common electric types (such as both rotom forms). Must also be choice band ice shard to win the match up, otherwise gets OHKOed by grass knot
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 288-342 (96.3 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 430-506 (119.1 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Can take out a weakened thundurus with either special or physical sets and is therefore a great offensive check but doesn't switch in very well or fit on every team
252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 184-217 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 225-265 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 246-290 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lastly, while the absence of screens has meant that double dance sets are notably worse, the lack of targets for focus blast frees up a move slot, which combined with gigavolt havoc means that teams have to stack multiple checks, which while not the end of the world is hardly beneficial for the tier. Additionally the lack of defensive counterplay means that Thundurus-Therian matches up well into the bulky offense teams that are being used at the moment. This is clearest when looking at the Thundurus match up vs the sample teams where it beats several of them from team preview

So that's my opinion on the matter, but I'd love to hear anyone elses thoughts on Thundurus though

Thundurus-T is a suspect I've always supported, and I was of the opinion that it would be manageable. It's clear there is no safe switch in to every Thundurus-T set, so its balance relies heavily on offensive counterplay. The fact is, we have quite a lot of revenge killers. For this reason, I believe that if Thundurus-T does remain banned, its most broken aspect will be its performance when offensive counterplay is somehow limited. Since Light Clay has been banned, the premiere way to do this is Sticky Web.

Thundurus-T is a perfect fit for webs. It provides an Electric and Ground immunity, as well as a way to ensure a solid matchup versus other forms of HO. The only defogger able to defog in front of Thundurus-T is Gligar, and Gligar has become largely irrelevant since Melmetal's ban. Webs limit common faster mons to Scarf Mienshao, Boots Zarude, Boots Zeraora (walled), Azelf, Scarf Keldeo, and Scarf Rotom-Wash. Only Mienshao (about 50% chance including accuracy) and Psychium Z Azelf are able to OHKO. Mamoswine's Ice Shard is also able to hurt it significantly, and Bisharp's Sucker Punch OHKOs at +2 (but the standard CB set can be outplayed). Webs also allow Thundurus to freely run Electrium Z, as Nihilego cannot abuse the lack of Psychium Z to act as a one time switch in.
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Electrium Z / Psychium Z / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Grass Knot

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Grass Knot
- Psychic / Knock Off / Thunderbolt
- Sludge Bomb / Knock Off / Thunderbolt

Here's a team which I think is a great example of how perfectly Thundurus fits on webs.
This is a game I played with this team which shows how devastating Thundurus can be. It is able to easily set up while 5 mons are alive, and cleanly sweep. Not much to elaborate on regarding this type of game, but it's worrying how easily it can win.

I haven't fully decided whether I think Thundurus-T is broken or not. Even on webs, there are certain matchups where no amount of setup will allow it to sweep. Nasty Plot sets outside of webs are scary, but I think they are easy enough to revenge kill that they are balanced. Pivot sets are complicated, they seem very difficult to switch into safely but require prediction. I don't believe pivot sets are broken either. Nasty Plot sets on webs however, do seem broken to me, although I could be convinced otherwise. As of now, I'm leaning towards Do Not Unban.

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